Gil: If communication was valued more - well, maybe, not more, but equally - and that's Giligan's point - why don't we look at both sides of the diagram and let's value communication as much as we do rules. Communication might be a way out of a problem situation, rather than discovering the truth, because that is the rule-based way of looking at things.

Sue: Well, Gil - yes, firstly, I value Truth. I think that this is the most important thing. Now, secondly, you can't have change unless you take risks. And you were saying there, Patricia, about Paul and his fellows in parliament there having battles. Well, okay, these battles might seem trivial, but they're extremely important. This is men at their best--

Patricia: My God, if that's--

Sue: --in the sense that they're taking risks, and they're striving to battle out what is true. It may seem petty, especially to women, because women don't value truth, and they don't value risks, and they don't value the things that men value - not at all. But what's important is just this: this battling it out. And this is where, as Kevin was saying before, there'll be those individuals come through that will strive to discover Truth.

Kevin: Yes, your Paul Keatings and so on are not sages. They're not wise men. But they have some sort of ideals. They have some sort of absolutes, some sort of principles, however small they may be. And they battle and they suffer and they internalize things, and they don't cry all that often, and they're pretty tough. And you need that toughness in order to pursue the truth.

Gil: But they're speaking for women. Women are left out of that notion of truth, because women won't be allowed to speak about the truth - they can't speak about it in the way men do. Men have to speak for women, and I think there's the part that I want to reject about that theory.

Kevin: I think when women can compete on male terms, which means on logical grounds--

Gil: Which you value above everything else.

Kevin: Which I value above everything else, then they'll be respected for what they are--

Gil: Which is what?

Kevin: Reasoning people. They'll be treated as reasoning people. You know, the fact that all women are treated as inferiors is not just by chance! Now, Sue here, who we've invited back onto the program for a second time, is a rational woman, so David and I, and everybody I know, treat Sue as a man. This is what the word "man" means to me.

Gil: Why not put irrational women on your show then, if you want to use that word?

Kevin: We do!

Patricia: Instead of being treated as a man, why not treat her as a rational woman? I mean, it can go the other way too.

Kevin: Well, I don't like to judge people purely on their physical form - that would be sexist - but I will judge them on their minds. Well, we've got to close up now, it's almost eleven o clock. We'll see you next week.

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