However, from my preoccupation with science, I also leaned many positives: That world views can change when the old theories are replaced by new ones. That theories are at best models of reality and not the real thing. That one can often learn more from the failure of an experiment than if it had succeeded. And that many of the important breakthroughs in science came from the cracks, the nagging little things that the current theories didn't quite cover. From engineering, I learned that you have to be adaptable in reality as nothing ever goes exactly as planned. That the theories of pure science are at best approximations, not to trust them completely nor take them as gospel, and finding what actually works is more important than holding on to a favorite theory or practice.

I also learned that I solved far more of my technical and management problems when I was asleep and dreaming than with my technical expertise, although I didn't admit that to anyone. I also noted that dreams were prominent in fundamental scientific breakthroughs. So to a large degree I was fascinated with the nature of dreams, and pursuit of this interest was a major part of my desire to become a psychologist after I left my career in engineering.

Tammie: In 1971, you were informed by your doctor that you'd be dead within three years. I was hoping that you might share what impact his warning had on you?

Graywolf: I had been going through some particularly tricky management issues (i.e. contract negotiations with the Teamsters union) and technical problems at the factory. I had developed a headache that had lasted for three weeks and my usual remedies helped not at all. My wife, who at that time was a nurse, was worried and so set up an appointment for me with a doctor to which I reluctantly went. I was shocked when the doctor immediately scheduled me for a number of tests at the local hospital.

I put it out of my mind until a couple of days later when the results were available. He took me into his office and gave them to me. I was in shock. My mother had died of many of the things that he was saying afflicted me. I asked how serious it was and he told me that he expected I would be dead within three years. He went on to cite my life style, work pressure, marital problems, as contributing causes along with my genetic background, and reiterated that I would be dead within three year without treatment and addressing some of these issues. And it might not work; I was in pretty bad shape mentally and physically.

My shock continued walking out of his office. I had a very strict diet in hand, a prescription or two, and was to report for checkups regularly. But I was terrified. I was only 32 years old and had watched my mother die young as I might myself.

I didn't tell my wife and I didn't sleep that night. I called in sick for the first time next morning and stayed in bed and thought. I re-evaluated my priorities. That evening was when I told my wife about my condition. I decided, at the very least, if I only had a little while to live, to start having fun and doing things that I had always wanted but never found the time for. Unfortunately, many of these things she wasn't willing to share with me such as going dancing, learning to ski, reactivating my passion for music and playing the rock guitar. I decided that doing them might be more important than my marriage, so I did them with her disapproval. Her idea was medication and a strict regimen of abstinence to heal me.

I began to leave my work at the plant and have fun evenings and weekends. I even began attending a non-denominational liberal church in town. I began to assess where I was and where I was going relative to my childhood ideals. I was falling far short of them. Soon my wife left me and I was in great pain over that. Her parting words were that I was going through a second childhood and she wanted nothing to do with it. I was in a major self-identity crisis.

At that point, neither my career nor my personal life satisfied me. The fun was fun, but my health was still poor. Headaches, shortness of breath, etc.

A concerned friend and business colleague took me out to lunch one day and recommended counseling for me. I wasn't too open to it, so he told me to show up on Friday evening at a certain church. It turned out to be empathy training for perspective crisis phone line workers. I reluctantly started the three-day training and became a convert by the time it was over.

I rediscovered my emotions and sensitivity. I soon dedicated all my off-work hours to this and to another program, drug crisis intervention work. Between the two I was spending all my off-work hours in the alternative community. I took an introduction to TA at the free university. It described my life and offered hope. By then I had dramatically resigned my job. (That is an interesting story in itself.) and had free time. I started training in TA and in my own analysis discovered the patterns that had trapped me and how they contributed to my Type A personality and health problems. I lost about forty pounds and began to get into shape.

I, soon, was totally dedicated to understanding healing from both psychological and medical perspectives. I wanted to become a healer and in the process heal myself. I also began to study dreams through the gestalt therapy and began attending all workshops on dreamwork at the psychology conferences I attended.

Tammie: You've also indicated that during your studies and in your practice as a psychotherapist you came to believe that for the most part current psychotherapy models "didn't really address the full human condition" in your clients or yourself. Would you elaborate on that?

Graywolf: I had completed TA and Gestalt training by 1975. I had, as part of that, studied psychology in considerable depth including Freudian, Jungian, Adlerian, Behavioral and Reichian models, theories and practices as well as a number of fringe practices and several approaches to body work. I also studied medical models of healing with a thought of attending medical school. In these studies I encountered two phenomena that captured my interest, the Placebo Effect and Iatrogenic illness. The former became my interest and ideal for a healing model. However I could find no operational explanation of how they worked.

On returning from my written and oral exams in TA, I met with my supervisor. I recall asking her "Is this all there is?" because I couldn't believe that this was the end state of psychological science. "What is beneath scripting?" I asked her along with other similar questions. She replied that I had all the basics, understood all the theories and practices and was fully qualified. "It's not enough." I told her. Engineers take pride in their tools and the ones I had mastered didn't seem enough.