Narcissism in the
Workplace
online conference transcript
 Our guest, Dr. Sam Vaknin, has
a Ph.D. in philosophy and is the author of the book
Malignant Self Love -
Narcissism Revisited. We discussed various aspects of narcissism in the
workplace, including how to recognize a narcissist, what personality types can
work with a narcissist and how to cope with a
narcissistic employer.
David Roberts
is the HealthyPlace.com
moderator.
The people in green are audience members.
David: Good
Evening. I hope your day went well. Welcome to HealthyPlace.com and our chat
conference on "Narcissism in the Workplace." I'm David Roberts, the
moderator of tonight's chat. Some of the topics we'll be discussing include:
How to cope with a narcissistic boss, co-worker, supplier, colleague, partner,
competitor, manager, or employee. And when is it time to toss in the towel and
leave that troublesome job?
Our guest is Dr. Sam Vaknin, author of Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited and an
authority on the subject of narcissism. You can
read more about Dr.
Vaknin by clicking on the link.
Just to clarify, Dr. Vaknin is not a therapist
or medical doctor of any sort. However, he is an expert on the subject of
narcissism and a self-proclaimed narcissist. Good Evening Dr. Vaknin and
welcome to HealthyPlace.com. Just so we are all clear on the subject, can you
give us a brief overview of what narcissism is?
Dr. Vaknin:
Great to be here again. Thank you for having me and for the kind words. Hello,
everyone.
Narcissists are driven by the need to uphold
and maintain a false self. They use the False Self to garner narcissistic
supply which is any kind of attention adulation, admiration, or even notoriety
and infamy.
David: How
does one recognize a narcissist?
Dr. Vaknin:
It is close to impossible and that is the secret of their astounding success.
Narcissists are good actors. They are adept at charming others, persuading
them, manipulating them, or otherwise influencing them to do their bidding. The
narcissist's sense of self-worth is unstable (labile) so, the narcissist relies
on input from other people to regulate his self-esteem and self-confidence. He
focuses on potential sources of supply and engulfs them with focused attention
and simulated deep emotions. Only in later encounter, as time passes and the
number of interactions grows, is it possible to tell that someone is a
narcissist. Narcissists are preoccuopied with grandiose fantasies unrealistic
plans. They are poor judges of reality. They are bullies and often resort to
verbal and emotional abuse. They exploit people and then discard them. They
have no empathy and regard their co-workers as mere instruments objects, tools,
and sources of adulation, affirmation, or potential benefits.
David: So,
in the beginning, you are saying they will get on your good side by charming
you and pretending to be interested in you and what you're doing. Later, what
kind of behaviors should a person expect from the: (1) narcissistic boss and
(2) colleague? And I'm assuming here that the behaviors for the two might be
different.
Dr. Vaknin:
Workplace narcissists seethe with anger and resentment. The gap between reality
and their grandiose flights of fancy (the "grandiosity gap") is so
great that they develop persecutory delusions, resentment and rage. They are
also extremely and pathologically envious, seeking to destroy what they
perceive to be the sources of their constant frustration: a popular co-worker,
a successful boss, a qualified or skilled employee. Narcissists at work crave
constant attention and will go to great lengths to secure it - including by
"engineering" situations that place them at the center. They are
immature, constantly nagging and complaining, finding fault with everyone and
everything, Cassandras who constantly predict impending doom. They are
intrusive and invasive. They firmly believe in teir own omnipotence and
omniscience. They feel entitled to special treatment and are convinced that
they are above Man-made laws, including the rules of their place of employment.
They are very disruptive, poor team members, can rarely collaborate with others
without being cantankerous and quarrelsome. They are control freaks and feel
the compulsive and irresistible urge to interfere in everyting to micromanage
and overrule others. All in all, a highly unpleasant experience.
David: If
you work with or under a narcissist, it sounds like your work life might be a
living hell.
Dr. Vaknin:
You would never forget it. It is traumatic and very likely to end in actual
bullying and stalking behaviors. Many workers end up with PTSD - Post Traumatic
Stress Syndrome. Others quit, or even relocate.
David: What
kind of individual, personality-wise, is best suited to work with a narcissist
co-worker or boss?
Dr. Vaknin:
Certain pathological personalities - for instance, someone with a
Dependent
Personality Disorder - or an
Inverted Narcissist
may get along just fine. A submissive person whose expectations are limited,
moods are subdued and willingness to absorb abuse is extended would survive
with a narcissist, or even thrive in such an environment. But the vast majority
of workers are likely to suffer ill-health effects, clash with the narcissist,
or end up being sacked, reassigned, relocated, or demoted. The narcissistic
bully very often gets his way: He gets promoted, the ideas he
"adopted" become corporate policy, his misdeeds are overlooked, his
misbehavior tolerated. This is partly because, as I said earlier, narcissists
are excellent liars with considerable thespian skills - and partly because no
one wants to mess around with a thug, even if his thuggery is limited to words
and gestures.
David: We
have a lot of audience questions, Dr. Vaknin. Let's get to a few and then I
have a few more questions to ask you. Here's the first one:
AMichael:
How common is narcissism within the population?
Dr. Vaknin:
According to orthodoxy, between 0.7%-1% of the adult population suffer from the
Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This figure is an underestimate.
Pathological narcissism is under-reported because, by definition, few
narcissists admit that anything is wrong with them and that they may be the
source of the constant problem in their life and the lives of their nearest or
dearest. Narcissists resort to therapy only in the wake of a harrowing life
crisis. They have alloplastic defenses - they tend to blame the world, their
boss, society, God, their spouse for their misfortune and failures. Last, but
not least, psychotherapists regard narcissists as "difficult"
patients with a "severe" personality disorder - or, put plainly, lots
of work with little reward.
Narcissists,
Paranoiacs and Psychotherapists
Narcissistic
Personality Disorder (NPD) At a Glance.
Doria57: Is
there any way to get along with these type of people at work?
Dr. Vaknin:
Here are a few useful guidelines:
- Never disagree with the narcissist or
contradict him.
- Never offer him any intimacy. You are not his
equal and an offer of intimacy insultingly implies that you are.
- Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him
(for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his
success with women and so on).
- Never remind him of life outside his bubble
and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity.Do not make any
comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image,
omnipotence, judgement, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record,
or even omnipresence.
- Bad sentences start with: "I think you
overlooked & made a mistake here & you don't know & do you know
& you were not here yesterday so & you cannot & you should, etc.
These are perceived as rude imposition. Narcissists react very badly to
restrictions placed on their freedom.
Linda3003:
My husband is employed by a very large university, inspite of
"outstanding" appraisals, many stolen ideas, marked increase in
customer satisfaction and being very professional, he was resently fired. His
boss did not like the acolaides my husband was receiving, etc. How does one
combat the defamation?
Dr. Vaknin:
Depends on your resources and your ability to accept recurrent interim defeats.
Narcissistic bosses are very tenacious and resourceful. They are pillars of the
community, usually widely respected and believed. They have at their disposal
the entire wherewithal of the organization. People say "where there's
fire, there's smoke". "If he was fired, there must have been a good
reason for it", "Why couldn't he simply get along? He must be
egocentric, a bad team player." And so on. It is un uphill battle. My
advice to you is to team up with an anti-bullying group or to have an attorney
look into wrongful dismissal charges.
Here is an excellent place to start your
search: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm,
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/
freedom03:
I would like to know if the narcissist is aware of what they are doing?
Dr. Vaknin:
Aware, cunning, premeditated, and, sometimes, even enjoying every bit of it.
But it is not malice that drives them. They believe in their own destiny,
superiority, entitlement, exemption from laws promulgated by mere mortals. The
narcissist regards himself as one would an expensive present, a gift to his
company, to his family, to his neighbours, to his colleagues, to his country.
Resistance calls for strenuous measures. Disagreement with the narcissist is
bound to be the outcome of ignorance or obstructionism. Criticism is malevolent
and ill-founded. The narcissist trusts that he has the full moral justification
to battle his foes. To his mind, the world is a hostile place, full of
Lilliputians who seek to shackle his genius, foresight, and natural advantages.
They aim to harness and castrate - and they deserve his ire and the ensuing
punishment he metes out to them in his infinite wisdom. It is a crusade against
the injustice of not recognizing the narcissist's true place in this world - at
the pinnacle.
David: Dr.
Vaknin, earlier you mention that the narcissist would act empathetic to draw in
his prey, so to speak. In light of that, here's the next question:
martha j:
Can this person genuinely develop authentic empathy skills?
Dr. Vaknin:
No, he cannot. Narcissists lack the basic machinery of putting themselves in
other people's shoes. They react with fury and denial when confronted with the
fact that persons in their environments are individual entities with their own
idiosyncratic and specific needs, preferences, choices, fears, hopes, and
expectations. This, the refusal to grant autonomy, is at the core of abuse,
whether on the domestic front or at the workplace. To the narcissist, others
are mere extensions, instruments of gratification, sources of narcissistic
supply. And nothing more than that.
delaware1974: With so many people afflicted with
this - why are we making it sound like a death sentence? All of us still need
to move on with our lives ...are we supposed to give up and accept because it's
hard? We spend alot of time talking about the negative or "escaping"
the narcissist, "surviving" the narcissist, what about those of us
that want to help them and NOT give up on them? Are there LIVE face-to-face
help groups? Hope?
Dr. Vaknin:
It is possible to live with the narcissist, as I made clear earlier. It
requires certain behavioral modifications and a willingness to accept the
narcissist largely as he is. These may be of interest:
And, yes, there are groups (though only online)
who tackle healing and co-existance - they are
listed
here.
I am not aware of a live group though I heard
recently that something is being organized in New York. Bullying - and
especially workplace bullying - is tackled by many online and live groups.
This
website, managed by a former bullying victim, Tim Field, is the best I know
of. It contains links to hundreds of resources.
David: For
many people, Dr. Vaknin, if you are in a situation working with a narcissist or
under a narcissist, they can't just pick up and leave their job. What is the
best way for them to cope without "kissing" up to this person and
being always vigilant about what you say and how you say it? or is that the
only way to survive?
Dr. Vaknin:
It depends whether the narcissistic bully represents the corporate culture of
the workplace - or is an isolated case attributable to a quirky nature or a
personality disorder. Alas, very often, abusive behaviors in one's office or
shop floor are merely the epitome of all-pervasive wrongdoing which permeates
the entire hierarchy, from top management to the bottom rung of employment.
Bullies rarely dare to express their tendencies in isolation and in defiance of
the prevailing ethos. Or, if they do run against the grain of their place of
employment, they lose their jobs. Typically, narcissists join already
narcissistic firms and mesh well with a toxic workplace, a poisonous
atmosphere, and an abusive management. If one is not willing to succumb to the
mores and (lack of) ethics of the workplace, there is little one can do.
Surprisingly few countries (Sweden, the United Kingdom, to some extent) outlaw
workplace abuse specifically. Whistleblowers and "troublemakers" are
frowned upon and are not protected by any institutions. It is a dismal
landscape. The victim would do well to simply resign and move on, sad as this
may be. As awareness of the phenomenon increases and laws take effect,
hopefully this will change and bullied and abused workers will find effective
ways to cope with mistreatment.
TimeToFly:
What typically happens to a narcissist when they lose their position of
authority or their job. How do they react to that? My narcissist ex-husband
recently lost his job. He will not say what happened exactly, typical. But
since then he has been on a rampage to destroy me. It was right after the loss
of his previous job that he left me and our children 4 years ago. He had been
the manager of engineering and was first demoted, and then finally left the
company. I never did get the story. He has just remarried, but his new life
somehow has not distracted him from his obsession with destroying mine.
Dr. Vaknin:
Being demoted or losing one's job is a narcissistic injury (or wound). The
entire edifice of the
Narcissistic
Personality Disorder is an elaborate and multi-layered reaction to past
narcissistic injuries. A gap opens between the way the narcissistic imagines
himself to be (grandiosity) and reality (unemployed, humiliated, discarded,
unneeded). The narcissist strives to bridge the grandiosity gap but sometimes
it is simply to abysmal to deny or ignore. So, some narcissists go through
decompensation - their defense mechanisms crumble. They may even experience
brief psychotic episodes. They become dysfunctional. The narcissists redouble
their efforts to obtain narcissistic supply by any means - sex, exercise,
attention-seeking behaviors. Yet others withdraw altogether to "lick their
wounds" (schizoid posture). What is common to all these narcissists is the
ominous feeling that they are losing control (and maybe even losing it). In a
desparate effort to re-exert control, the narcissist becomes abusive. Sometimes
abuse is about controlling the victim. Others seek "easy targets" -
lonely women to "conquer" or simple tasks to accomplish, or
no-brainers, or to compete against weak opponents with a guaranteed
result.
For more on these behaviors:
David: If
you are interested in purchasing Dr. Vaknin's excellent and very thorough
book on narcissism, Malignant Self Love: Narcissism
Revisited, click on the link.
jenmosaic:
What causes NPD?
Dr. Vaknin:
No one knows. The accepted wisdom is that NPD is tan adaptative reaction to
early childhood or early adolescence trauma and abuse. There are many forms of
abuse. The more familiar ones - verbal, emotional, psychological, physical,
sexual - of course yield psychopathologies. But are far more subtle and more
insidious forms of mistreatment. Doting, smothering, ignoring personal
boundaries, treating someone as an extension or a wish-fulfillment machine,
spoiling, emotional blackmail, an ambience of paranoia or intimidation
("gaslighting") - have as long lasting effects as the
"classic" varieties of abuse. Still, there is always the possibility
of a hereditary component More about the
roots of
narcissism here
David: Here
are a couple of audience comments about what's been said tonight:
Doria57: No
one ever wants to form an anti-bullying group, they are afraid.
martha j:
The descriptions of the narcissistic boss --Isn't this the unfortunate all
American definition of the "successful boss?
Dr. Vaknin:
I'd like to respond to that last comment. Mental health disorders - and
especially personality disorders - are not divorced from the twin contexts of
culture and society. Western society and culture are narcissistic. Disparate
scholars and thinkers - Christopher Lasch on the one hand and Theodore Millon
on the other hand - have concluded as much. Narcissistic behaviors - now
labeled "misconduct" - have long been nornmative. The basically
narcissistic traits of individualism competitiveness, unbridled ambition - are
the founding stones of certain versions of capitalism. Thus, certain forms of
abuse and bullying actually constitute an integral part of the folklore of
corporate America. Narcissistic bosses were idolized. As long as this is the
case, workplace abuse would be hard to overcome. More here:
David:
Thank you, Dr. Vaknin, for being our guest this evening and for sharing this
information with us. And to those in the audience, thank you for coming and
participating. I hope you found it helpful. We have a very large and active
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